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Tutorial: Balancing the Other Speed Masteries

 
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Fledge



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 148


PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Tutorial: Balancing the Other Speed Masteries Reply with quote

Okay, I'm not just a mapper... Razz I'm actually writing, or trying to write, a tutorial for the skill/effect editor balancing.

Now, the issue of the 'Mastery' talents has been a major problem for most of the shards so far. I am not merely talking about the "Weapon Mastery" skill which raises maximum damage, I am talking about the weapon-type-specific skills. For example, Old Akarra's Spear Mastery.

Note that the skill requires 10 attribute points(STR) per proficiency gem with ten slots giving 75 less miliseconds of attack duration with each gem in the talent. That is the ONLY information you have with which to create similar masteries for every other weapon type.

The assumption by most shard developers, even those of EX and AE, has been that adding the same 75 miliseconds less per gem and the same requirements for other weapon types will accomplish 'balance'. That is a baseless assumption that ignores simple logic, and I will explain why just as I explained it to Gorgorath and he took the information happily. Gorgorath had already made the mistake of using the same pattern on the fastest weapon(daggers) AND releasing two copies of Dagger Mastery, which may explain why the player that ended up with two copies is an extraordinarily high level. But that's trivial to the matter of balancing... on with the explanation.

The average speed for the 'Spear' weapon type is 4350 miliseconds. Taking off 75 miliseconds per gem is the standard for this weapon type. 75 is exactly one fifty-eighth of 4350.

4350 / 58 = 75

If you want to venture as far as creating all five scrolls for Spear Mastery the pattern continues with 10 STR per gem for fifty gem slots. In the end the fifth scroll takes 500 STR to fill which is unlikely, but possible. Or if you have the source code... anything is possible. The end result is having eight fifty-eights of the original attack speed left, that's less than a sixth. Now all I have done so far is examined the prospects of finishing the other four scrolls of the skill, though the necessity for that is up to you. Jens says the skill was not meant to be continued for more than one scroll, so that's up to you and it is irrelevant to my explanation of implementing this to other weapon types.

The mistake of simply invoking the same 75 miliseconds per gem to another weapon type is wrong mainly because the weapon duration subtracted should be proportional to the average weapon speed. Taking 75 miliseconds off spear attack speed from the first gem raises efficiency by 1.75438%. Invoking the same values upon a weapon type with a different speed, such as daggers, is going to have very different results. Daggers are the fastest, as opposed to the slowest(spears), and thus are on the opposite end of the speed spectrum. I do not have the correct value infront of me, but I believe it is something like 1950. Taking 75 miliseconds off that duration raises dagger efficiency by 4%. Thus, by implementing the 75 miliseconds to other weapon types you have clearly overpowered the faster weapon speeds. The faster weapon speeds are commonly associated with agility. This is why many players accuse of EX and AE of being far too agility-oriented in comparison to Old Akarra.

How do you balance them properly? Simple. Find a value proportional to the average weapon speed of the weapon type.

What's the proportion? Read above. One fifty-eighth.

What are the average weapon speeds of each weapons peeds so that I can make these calculations? Make the calculations yourself, I'm not doing to develop the talents for you. Besides, the weapon speeds I deal with are varied from Old Akarra. Even if I wanted to, I don't even have the increments.

Can you give an example? Sure, how about daggers since that is the most critically affected by this. Assuming my memory is correct and 1950 is infact the right value for daggers...

1950ms / 58 = 33.62068966ms

Multiply that value by the gem slot number for 1 through 10 or even 1 through 50 if you want to be so brash as to use all five scrolls.

Anything else? Yes, some weapon types, such as SWORDS, have such a wide range of speed values that it is much easier to invoke two masteries for Small and Large. Thus, you have Small Sword Mastery and Large Sword Mastery. Same for bows, axes, crushing, etc.

What else is important? Make sure the effects only work on the designated weapon type(s). Use the values Braiba posted long ago if you do not know them or if you are not competant with the mathematical logic of the pattern.

What requirements for the other masteries? I can't say for sure, but I believe that the Mastery skills are based upon the main ATTR requirements for the weapon type. Both Knowledge of Spears and Knowledge of Spear Mastery require STR and the spear type is almost entirely STR-based. However, Knowledge of Spears was never implemented and thus, it might be unwise to assume that they were meant to be based upon weapon requirements and not simply to have all attack-rating skills based on agility and all speed skills based on STR. But, it does seem rather inefficient that way because Dagger Mastery would never be filled much if it took STR and knowledge of Spears would never be filled much if it took AGI. Therefore, it seems wise to consider basing them upon the requirements of each weapon type. If it is mixed STR-AGI such as Swords, Spears and Bows, consider giving Mastery a STR requirement since Knowledge of Ranged Weapons, Knowledge of Swords and Knowledge of Axes already take AGI. The pattern for masteries has always been +10 for all gems. The pattern for attack-rating skills based on weapon type has always been +5 for the first scroll, +10 for the second, +15 for the third, +20 for the fourth and +25 for the fifth with a base value of 20. (Shield Use and attack-rating-weapon skills have a base value of 20 where Magic Use, Dodge, Fighting and others have the same +5, +10, +15, etc pattern WITHOUT the base value of 20.)

Yes, I fully understand that the continuation of the pattern into +15, +20 and +25 in the last three scrolls is questionable, however it remains the most logical way to continue the pattern. The only logical alternative would be to assume that the pattern is geometric rather than arithmetic and that it goes +5, +10, +20, +40, +80... which is rather absurd. However, that hasn't stopped a few shards from leaving the patterns at +5 for all scrolls or +10. And that has had disasterous balancing results that have made the players far more powerful than the monsters. That is a reference to AE, not EX... as far as I know.

Does this have any other implications? You could calculate the efficiency boost from each gem in Spear Mastery, adjust it for the variance in attribute requirements of +10 ATTR per proficiency gem to the pattern of +5, +10, +15, etc to completely revamp Weapon Mastery, Toughness, Endurance and Focus with new percentage increases since most players consider those skills to be far inferior to the arithmetic-series-based skills of Dodge, Fighting, Magic Use, Shield Use, Swords, Ranged Weapons and Axes. However, revamping those skills with new values that make them useful is your own choice. It certainly helps make Akarra less AGI-oriented than it once was.


Any questions, compliments or constructive criticism you wish to share? Be my guest. I will gladly discuss and even debate the logic used in this tutorial, in hopes of learning and teaching at the same time.

I did not write this to expose the unbalancing of EX's weapon masteries or AE's or AE's ignored take on attribute requirement patterns that can't continue mathematical patterns beyond an elementary school level. But if you wanna flame me for that, go ahead. I didn't write it to expose that, since I already shared all this information willingly to help Gorgorath, not to scrutinize.

Cheers!
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tbbw



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 76

Location: next to my porn colection

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good tutorial for the beginners but u forgot one thing doh.
the history behind the dual dagger skills on EX whas abit of missunderstanding between gorg and tbbw.
gorg whas working on the dagger skill and tbbw thought it whas done and added it ingame, then the mistake whas discoverd and the dagger mastery whas removed while a small amount of players had it, then it whas disabled.

no offence fledge but sometimes u like to puke more info then needed so i just had to correct you'r beloved pukes Cool
else then that everything is correct Smile
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Slayermagic



Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 22


PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fledge wrote:
I did not write this to expose the unbalancing of EX's weapon masteries or AE's or AE's ignored take on attribute requirement patterns that can't continue mathematical patterns beyond an elementary school level. But if you wanna flame me for that, go ahead. I didn't write it to expose that, since I already shared all this information willingly to help Gorgorath, not to scrutinize.


I don't think this is puking, it's an opinion, and I don't see any mention to a dagger skill. Perhaps there was more implied and about different things?
I don't think it's right to hit on everything Fledge says, since I won't get into all the discrimatory behaviour that goes on in Ex against people who give out opinions about it, that's all I have to say.
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tbbw



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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Location: next to my porn colection

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slayermagic wrote:
Fledge wrote:
I did not write this to expose the unbalancing of EX's weapon masteries or AE's or AE's ignored take on attribute requirement patterns that can't continue mathematical patterns beyond an elementary school level. But if you wanna flame me for that, go ahead. I didn't write it to expose that, since I already shared all this information willingly to help Gorgorath, not to scrutinize.


I don't think this is puking, it's an opinion, and I don't see any mention to a dagger skill. Perhaps there was more implied and about different things?
I don't think it's right to hit on everything Fledge says, since I won't get into all the discrimatory behaviour that goes on in Ex against people who give out opinions about it, that's all I have to say.


yawn... another thread....
i dont, there is plenty of areas where i dont.
dont ower dramatice it... i just stated "my opinion" and the story behind it Cool
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Fledge



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 148


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We look at most things you say with open unimpartiality for the sake of tolerance. You clearly don't do the same for us. The number of things we COULD flame but don't towards you is astounding. Only flame when it is constructive, and that doesn't happen much. Considering I don't give you much credibility in the areas of knowledge related to what you flame me about, you're wasting your time. Please stop, I won't listen often. (/end generalizations)
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tbbw



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 76

Location: next to my porn colection

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fledge wrote:
We look at most things you say with open unimpartiality for the sake of tolerance. You clearly don't do the same for us. The number of things we COULD flame but don't towards you is astounding. Only flame when it is constructive, and that doesn't happen much. Considering I don't give you much credibility in the areas of knowledge related to what you flame me about, you're wasting your time. Please stop, I won't listen often. (/end generalizations)
haha that's the thing u dont lisen Laughing
well nice to see that you say that yourself ^^
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